tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post6442944082896730213..comments2024-02-19T07:24:42.397-08:00Comments on Anglican Curmudgeon: The Issue Is Finally Joined in Pittsburgh (I)A. S. Haleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05108498446058643166noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-89160394695753395282009-05-22T22:05:05.241-07:002009-05-22T22:05:05.241-07:00Mr. Haley:
I concur with you re how state courts ...Mr. Haley:<br /><br />I concur with you re how state courts work; I am familiar with them having worked in the legal field for 20+ years. And, yes, ECUSA will need a 100% win rate. My comment was more from the aspect of how 815 would comport itself in the future after such a ruling as opposed to how such a ruling would play out in the various state courts. All 815 needs is for one court to say, "Yes, TEC is hierarchical," and 815 will kiss TEC's Canons and Constitution good-bye.<br /><br />LarswifeLarswifehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11081395959307842991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-15330609810293680482009-05-21T13:56:51.779-07:002009-05-21T13:56:51.779-07:00Dear Mr. Haley,
Absolutely marvelous. I believe t...Dear Mr. Haley,<br /><br />Absolutely marvelous. I believe that I may detect the mind of a very thorough member of the bar behind the drafting of this <I>Answer and New Matter to Complaint in Intervention</I>. Having followed the depositions, read the relevant sections of the C & C addressed thereto, read and reread Mr. McCall's papers published by the ACI, and followed your numerous citations and analyses of the actions and issues, I am greatly heartened that some prospect of justice under the <I>Rule of Law</I> may at last be glimpsed in Pittsburgh.<br /><br />I would assume that the very explicit denials of the assertions in the plaintiffs' complaint will now require the presiding jurist in the case to actually read, or have presented to him (in briefs?), the relevant canons and sections of the Consititution of TEC. Am I significantly in error in that assumption?<br /><br />If I am not, my inclination based on Bishop Duncan's <I>Answer and New Matter…</I> would be to lay a small wager that one of two outcomes is the more likely in the Pittsburgh case:<br /><br />(1) TEC will be "sent packing" (whether with or without an admonition to plaintiffs' counsel I would not venture a guess); or,<br /><br />(2) TEC will "see the light," declare moral victory, strike their colors and decamp prior to the occurrence of the first possible outcome listed.<br /><br />Perhaps this is a bit overoptimistic, but, IMHO (and I am not an attorney), this clearly sets the stage for an ultimate ruling by SCOTUS that the conditions obtaining in <I>Serbian Orthodox Diocese v. Milivojevich (1976) 426 U.S. 696, 708–709,<br />713</I>, namely the requirment of deference by the court to <I><B>the highest ecclesiastical authority</B></I>, which precluded civil judicial intervention do not obtain in the case of TEC.<br /><br />Pax et bonum,<br />Keith Töpfer<br />____________________<br />"<I>Si vis pacem, para bellum</I>."—<I>[classical adage, believed based on a quotation from Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus]</I>Martial Artisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12059467870069787735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-1661505455378943322009-05-21T12:07:43.389-07:002009-05-21T12:07:43.389-07:00Jeremy Bonner, thank you for that most helpful com...Jeremy Bonner, thank you for that most helpful comment. You are obviously a scholar of the Church's history, and I hope you find that the posts I have elsewhere on that topic are accurate. <br /><br />Father Tim, that is an interesting survey of the view from the pews. As you note, this blog is an attempt to get the word out to such people. Even if they think they are too old to do anything else about it, they can at least specify to their local parish that the money they give is to stay there, and not go any farther.<br /><br />Nancy (Larswife), you may not realize how state courts work. The courts in Virginia or in California are not bound by what any court in Pennsylvania or in Texas may decide, and vice versa. Each case is decided on the evidence and arguments presented only in that case, and the law applied is generally that of the courts of that State (or, in the case of federal constitutional matters, the law as decided by the U.S. Supreme Court). That is why I said that ECUSA needed a victory rate of 100% in <I>all</I> their various suits in State courts to succeed. One win will not guarantee success in any of the others, while one loss <I>will</I> set them back by all the money they have spent on just that case.A. S. Haleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05108498446058643166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-80423164085592393652009-05-21T10:16:10.781-07:002009-05-21T10:16:10.781-07:00If TEC can get a "win" from one of the Courts on "...If TEC can get a "win" from one of the Courts on "The Issue" - a legal precedent will have been set by which 815 will be able to assert that, indeed, TEC is a hierarchical church. There will be no turning back at that point.<br /><br />Larswife<br />http://anglicanvigil.com/anglicanwife/Larswifehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11081395959307842991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-62511538839115908762009-05-21T06:00:02.865-07:002009-05-21T06:00:02.865-07:00Thanks for this. I appreciate your opening apolog...Thanks for this. I appreciate your opening apology but even more the massive amount of work you are putting in as a lay Christian to inform people about what you rightly call THE issue in the cases.<br /><br />I am surprised that this hasn't caught on with more laity around the church. What TEC is doing goes against every bit of popular wisdom thay most lay people would use to describe the denomination to friends:<br /><br />"Yes, our worship is very much like the Catholic church, but we don't have a Pope or hierarchy that dictates everything."<br /><br />"Yes, we are organized somewhat like the United States, with a limited central government and much authority at the local level."<br /><br />"Yes, we get to vote on many matters. Clergy don't dictate where the money goes. Lay people have a strong voice in leadership."<br /><br />All those nostrums are going bye bye if The Issue is not engaged and shown for the smoke and mirrors trick that it is. That will require both legal and popular resistance.<br /><br />My biggest worry on the "popular" front comes from the stats about the average age of Episcopalians. We have a large number - quite possibly a decisive majority - of folks who are old and, confronted with The Issue, will say things like,<br /><br />"Well, just so long as the church is there to comfort me and provide my funeral." (Actual statement)<br /><br />"I don't care if the church dies, as long as I die first!" (Actual statement by a vestry member, not one of mine thank God!)<br /><br />"Oh, we fought all these battles for so long. I'm just tired and somebody else needs to do it" (composite of actual quotes)TLF+https://www.blogger.com/profile/01650010433581488888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-18561156172875384602009-05-21T05:42:57.816-07:002009-05-21T05:42:57.816-07:00One of the conclusions that I have reached is that...One of the conclusions that I have reached is that the founders of the Episcopal Church deliberately avoided specificity. <br /><br />On both sides, the existential debate on the "hierarchical church" principle seems to ignore the fact that William White knew he was attempting to reconcile the irreconcilable (Samuel Seabury and the Virginians). Consequently, for the first 150 years of the Episcopal Church's existence, those in authority strove desperately to avoid winner-take-all outcomes. Given that the only loss in that period was the Reformed Episcopal Church, they were clearly fairly successful. <br /><br />Starting in the late 1910s (the Nationwide Campaign of 1919, to be exact) there was a groundswell of opinion favoring greater centralization - an elected Presiding Bishop without jurisdiction and a more reliably funded central office - but within ten years the Great Depression had brought this to a crashing halt. When it revived in the early 1950s, the ideological and theological climate of the church had undergone a distinct shift.<br /><br />Clearly, such history does not prove intent to establish the facts on the ground for the hierarchical church principle (and the grassroots rejection of the General Convention Special Project during the 1960s would seem to prove the contrary). What does seem more ambiguous to me is the assurance of so many of my conservative friends (whose theology I share) that the decentralized model is part of the warp and woof of Episcopal identity. <br /><br />It seems more plausible to say that Samuel Seabury would have had no trouble with a hierarchical church model but would have utterly rejected the notion of autonomous provincial churches, while the Virginian tradition could live with an "American" church model, but would have been equally fervent in the notion of congregational autonomy. Hence the fervent desire of the founders to avoid undue specificity and to create a zone of "diocesan autonomy" that would hopefully satisfy all. Ironically, neither of the parties to the current dispute exactly mirrors the positions of the past, thus perpetuating the confusion. The trouble with all of this is that no legal team is ever going to address it directly because it muddies the waters (at least in the opinion of this non-lawyer).<br /><br />Incidentally, this site is most illuminating. Thanks for the labor you put into it.Jeremy Bonnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16915767119353670952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-8804007652846931422009-05-20T13:57:42.020-07:002009-05-20T13:57:42.020-07:00Thanks, Pewster---it's fixed.Thanks, Pewster---it's fixed.A. S. Haleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05108498446058643166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-20258036610852577502009-05-20T13:37:19.234-07:002009-05-20T13:37:19.234-07:00On #20 it looks like you need to switch the colors...On #20 it looks like you need to switch the colors around.Undergroundpewsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10182191422663119484noreply@blogger.com