tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post185273975822159944..comments2024-02-19T07:24:42.397-08:00Comments on Anglican Curmudgeon: Crucify Him! (Do We Care?)A. S. Haleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05108498446058643166noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-13941142512928821332008-12-31T18:10:00.000-08:002008-12-31T18:10:00.000-08:00I not only wrote about waterboarding or humiliatio...I not only wrote about waterboarding or humiliation; one of the factors that is so disturbing about extraordinary rendition is that we have no control over what happens to a detainee sent abroad. We do know, however, that we have sent a prisoner to a country that practices torture. That in itself makes us complicit.<BR/><BR/>I don't want to be misunderstood, however, so let me state unequivocally that waterboarding or humiliation are not at all equivalent to crucifixion. That practice does indeed deserve strong universal condemnation.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07149064142161519774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-43248926368022594482008-12-31T17:21:00.000-08:002008-12-31T17:21:00.000-08:00Thank you, Jeff, for giving us the liberal perspec...Thank you, Jeff, for giving us the liberal perspective on the silence in the media that I noted in the post.<BR/><BR/>For all that I can nod my head in agreement with what you say, I am still bothered by the willful silence. The news has appeared in major Jewish and Arabic papers, and now on ever more blogs, but I will wager you that we can wait for a month and there will still be no story in the major Western news media that gives it anywhere near the prominence that they gave to Abu Ghraib in their pages.<BR/><BR/>I am sure you do not mean to imply that waterboarding, or Abu-Ghraib-type humiliation, is the equivalent of crucifixion. Yet when I look at the reams of ink devoted to the former, and compare that to the scant mention of the latter, I cannot help but conclude that there is a lack of balance, and a lack of perspective, in how the media approaches its task of reporting the news. The fact that there is capital punishment in America in no way equates to the fact that capital punishment in Gaza can now consist of crucifixion. It's too much like the old joke about the reporting of the race between an American car and a Russian car: When the American car won, it was so reported in Western media, but the Russian newspapers headlined: "Russian car finishes second in international competition---American car finishes next to last." In looking at how our media deal with stories like Palestinian crucifixion---not imposed by a single dictator, or by a corrupt official, mind you, but <I>voted in by an elected legislature</I>---I frequently get the feeling that they are no better than the Russian media were in that joke. And the saddest part is that in our case, it's not a joke.A. S. Haleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05108498446058643166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-9608632808481909652008-12-31T16:32:00.000-08:002008-12-31T16:32:00.000-08:00You correctly state that we liberals are silent ab...You correctly state that we liberals are silent about crucifixion, as mandated by Hamas, in comparison to Western torture. Why is that? <BR/><BR/>First, we, like most, simply haven’t heard about it. For that reason, conservatives haven’t said much about it either. But more importantly, while we abhor all torture, we’re most concerned with what our government is doing. First, we have more influence on it in our democracy than on governments in other lands. Second, our government is the representative of “we the people.” Let’s look at how it has been doing that for the past eight years.<BR/><BR/>We have a vice president, Dick Cheney, who recently stated that he approves of waterboarding, in defiance of the Geneva Conventions and the War Crimes Act. But why worry about that? After all, not too long ago we had an attorney general, Alberto Gonzalez, supposedly charged with enforcing the law, who stated that the Geneva Conventions were “quaint.” Likewise, the humiliations of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo are our practice of humiliation. In addition, we have been in league with the countries you cite when we practice extraordinary rendition, the sending of detainees to countries that practice torture. We have discovered that we are not as different from our enemies as we thought.<BR/><BR/>We have good reason to be concerned about these policies and practices; they are, to our horror, in complete contradiction to what we thought of as our democratic, Western values–the very values through which we define ourselves. The one bright spot is when the Supreme Court has stepped in and challenged some of the excesses of the Bush administration, as in the case of habeas corpus. Yet how shocking to have had a president who claimed the right to lock up without legal representation anyone he deems an “enemy combatant”–a practice reminiscent of Stalin.<BR/><BR/>You brought up the example of capital punishment in the U.S. That is one punishment that we have in common with the regimes mentioned: Gaza, Iran, Syria and North Korea. While there is reason to oppose it everywhere, we must be most concerned when it is our death penalty–a penalty that we alone bring to the Western world.<BR/><BR/>We must, of course, be concerned about torture as practiced everywhere, whether abroad or in the U.S. That is why I encourage everyone to support Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and the American Civil Liberties Union.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07149064142161519774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-40446303218469313322008-12-30T11:09:00.000-08:002008-12-30T11:09:00.000-08:00To quote from the article,"It is because the leadi...To quote from the article,<BR/><BR/>"It is because the leading political leaders and foreign policy practitioners in the West refuse to listen to them and deny the significance of their actions."<BR/><BR/>Hear no Evil<BR/>See no Evil<BR/>Speak no Evil<BR/><BR/>The three monkeys may not be the best analogy for the mainstream media's and our political strategy in dealing with the axis of evil.<BR/><BR/>I wonder if a better analogy would be,<BR/><BR/>Afraid to hear Evil<BR/>Afraid to see Evil<BR/>Afraid to call out Evil<BR/><BR/>Maybe the media and the politicians fear retribution from the evil ones. Recall the negative response to President Bush after the famous Axis of Evil speech.Undergroundpewsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10182191422663119484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-32741489092280328802008-12-30T09:37:00.000-08:002008-12-30T09:37:00.000-08:00Thank you so much for the research and for putting...Thank you so much for the research and for putting this together!Perpetuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16632860530530786486noreply@blogger.com