tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post7872298058176363561..comments2024-02-19T07:24:42.397-08:00Comments on Anglican Curmudgeon: The Dog in the Manger (II): Good ShepherdA. S. Haleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05108498446058643166noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-79084174383045017002017-02-01T14:10:14.853-08:002017-02-01T14:10:14.853-08:00If the primary concern was quick money, the dioces...If the primary concern was quick money, the diocese would have accepted the $500,000 buyback from the congregation rather than a quick $50,000 sale to a Muslim group. This was very much meant to be a personal, vindictive and permanent act of hatred and spite.<br /><br />Mind, i don't blame the Muslims in any way - they were getting a great deal. The feminists masquerading as Episcopals did too - they got to loot an Episcopal congregation, take a 150 year old church away from them and got $50,000 in the bargain.Dr. Ferrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418352378421929266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-55773624468111175152017-02-01T14:04:44.315-08:002017-02-01T14:04:44.315-08:00Beg pardon? Did you know that the original congreg...Beg pardon? Did you know that the original congregation offered ten times the amount of money that the Episcopal leadership eventually settled on? It's very hard to believe that fiscal solvency was the primary motive here. Nor is this the only case where I've heard of this sort of thing before. In my region, the Episcopal church was literally looted and destroyed by radical feminist atheists. I knew some of them personally (one was married to someone I knew very well). They openly bragged, often gleefully, about what they were doing and why they were doing it. These were socialists who absolutely despise Christians.Dr. Ferrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418352378421929266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-2740822855773962672017-02-01T13:58:19.080-08:002017-02-01T13:58:19.080-08:00The real mistake is in foolishly letting Left fasc...The real mistake is in foolishly letting Left fascists take over leadership of the Episcopal church. I've met and conversed with some of these people personally. In no way were they shy about their intentions. They are socialists who are implacably hostile to religion in general and to Christianity in particular, and want to do away with both. Once they gained control of the assets of the Episcopal church, what would happen next was entirely predictable.Dr. Ferrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418352378421929266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-65723929979029405232010-04-11T23:50:27.474-07:002010-04-11T23:50:27.474-07:00And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna [Bingha...And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna [Binghamton] write: These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive: I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty (but thou art rich), and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews [believers], and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan, Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. --JesusRMPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16015551598549688230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-77328773180296097082010-03-25T11:07:12.470-07:002010-03-25T11:07:12.470-07:00"Because of your tolerance we will invade you..."Because of your tolerance we will invade you! Because of our religion we will triumph over you!"<br /><br />Briish Imam Aubery Chaudhry<br /><br />We die for our faith, but we kill over doctrine. <br /><br />Is Fr. Daniel familiar with orthodox doctrine of the Islamic faith concerning dealing with infidels (Christians and Jews).<br /><br />Perhaps some research of the term dhimmitude and taqqiya may prove enlightening. He may be unfamiliar with the evidence produced in the Holy Land trials by the US Justice Department. The Muslim Brotherhood's agenda of subvering America were brought to light. Most Islamic organizations (CAIR, ISNA,MSA etc.) were in the blue print. These organizations are almost 100% funded by foreign (Saudi Arabian) interests. Like an army, we are being invaded. Islam represents a foreign interest to America.Ragfishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09132661028749597792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-11650350109316465892010-03-22T19:17:56.516-07:002010-03-22T19:17:56.516-07:00Daniel+ --
Okay, so we're all mad, and we'...Daniel+ --<br /><br />Okay, so we're all mad, and we're taking it out on you (who had nothing to do with it) unfairly. And your refusal to affirm or criticize the diocese's action in taking the church from the congregation suggests that -- well, that you refuse to affirm or criticize that decision. Somehow you can separate that action from the action of selling the building to the Muslims. I can't seem to get there; it all looks like part of the same sequence of events from here -- force out the congregation, sell it to someone else.<br /><br />I read on Babyblue that you were happy that Good Shepherd found a new church home. And I'm willing to believe you, and to assume that you are a gracious and generous person -- for which, no doubt, you will be severely punished. And, like many generous and gracious people, you wish to believe that your peers in the priesthood who share your views also share the same characteristics. <br /><br />If the Diocese of CNY was motivated by the best of intentions, and not by spite, then I would have to say that they are incredibly naive, and have made a very foolish PR move. I frankly think many within the surrounding community will come to the conclusion many of us here have done. And, frankly, not being as gracious and generous as you are, and having serious misgivings about human nature, I still strongly suspect that their naivety was in fact a blindness brought on by less than the best of intentions. <br /><br />Yes, I know Muslims don't hate Christ. They revere him not as God incarnate, but as a great prophet and spiritual leader, as actually do many Episcopal priests. That knowledge doesn't help me much here, however.RBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16752701681681717163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-19798411329428363242010-03-22T15:04:52.818-07:002010-03-22T15:04:52.818-07:00This will be the last post from me on this topic -...This will be the last post from me on this topic - which is probably a welcome development for many. I have ventured only two opinions on this sad story - here or anywhere else. The first was that the diocese was almost guaranteed to prevail in court. The second ws that - in the absence of any evidence that there were better current offers for the property or that the Muslim group was hostile to Christians - I could see nothing wrong with the diocese's decision to sell. I have been criticized for refusing to venture an opinion about other matters and for not taking the time and efort to learn enough about other matters to venture an informed opinion. I have been open to evidence that the diocese is wrong to accept the current offer, but most of what I have received are statements about how wrong the diocese was to refuse earlier offers and to sue the congregation, none of which have much bearing on the current decision to sell.Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-7537626148035502702010-03-22T14:11:42.754-07:002010-03-22T14:11:42.754-07:00I am amazed by your comments Fr. Weir. The circum...I am amazed by your comments Fr. Weir. The circumstances have been well document and are easily available if you care to research the matter. No matter what the secular laws of the state are the diocese has done a grave disservice to the people of Good Shepherd. As Ambassadors of Christ, the Bishop and the Diocese have failed miserably. And yet, you continue to argue for religious tolerance.<br /><br />The leadership of the EC and the Diocese have no religious tolerance for the people of Good Shepherd or its priest and his family.<br /><br />There was no Christian charity. There was vindictiveness.<br /><br />Yet, even though others are gracious enough to inform you of what happened, you continue to twist in the wind.<br /><br />It is a sad state of affairs when a priest makes such misinformed comments.<br /><br />Lord have mercy on us all.Creighton+https://www.blogger.com/profile/17772723100302629537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-54523565412150942062010-03-22T09:09:02.200-07:002010-03-22T09:09:02.200-07:00Just like a liberal revisionist claiming naivety y...Just like a liberal revisionist claiming naivety yet posting opinions on things he later comes back to say he has no knowledge of and then lobbing a "tolerance" bomb in the middle of his verbal mess thinking that "All we need is love" ...well that maybe true but I seem to remember Jesus over turning the money changers and showing that he too can become very angry...and He did rebuke Peter and a few others. So yes we all need to "Love one another" but we are also told to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves...TEc is hell bent on removing any conservative traditional Christian from it rolls and strip them of any property and money so they can use it for their law suits (also unchristian)and for promoting their agenda of LBGT and their Unitarian Unilateralist One World Religion concept. Wormwood is jumping up and down with joy and glee.TLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07172828226068216537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-26575016599497903182010-03-20T12:13:28.116-07:002010-03-20T12:13:28.116-07:00Hi Fr. Weir,
It seems you are quite selective in...Hi Fr. Weir, <br /><br />It seems you are quite selective in your quotations. Here is what I wrote at BB:<br /><br />"That is partly true...but all lies are I suppose. <br /><br />Our first two offers did include money from the trust fund that later the diocese would claim. <br /><br />But you leave out, of course, the little detail that at the time we were operating on assurances from the bishop that our assets could be exchanged for property.<br /><br />When we realized he was not being upfront with us we offered to get financing and pay with separate funds. <br /><br />This offer was made in the context of the very same meeting in which we were told, for the first time, that the asset/property swap would be impossible and that they were giving us time to make arrangements and get out or they would sue. <br /><br />In reality it was an ambush meeting. We knew our first two proposals had been rejected but did not know why. We went up with the express purpose of meeting face to face and maintaining what we thought had been honest friendly negotiations. <br /><br />Instead, we were met by two lawyers and a stipulation document. <br /><br />I published all of the details of our "negotiations" in a series of posts entitled "Rector's Journal" which you can easily find on SF. <br /><br />Matt"Matt Kennedyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10975005135486296368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-88905054010103820582010-03-19T11:08:04.460-07:002010-03-19T11:08:04.460-07:00I don't know wht the diocese broke off negotia...I don't know wht the diocese broke off negotiations. What is true is that the early offers from the congregation were with funds that were ultimately detrmined in court to belong to the diocese (Fr. Matt Kennedy affirmed this in a post at BabyBlue). Knowing the law,I can understand why the diocese declined to accept those offers.<br /><br />Church starts are difficult. There were, I think, few members of the parish who did not leave TEC and without a core of people committed to rebuilding, the decision of the diocese seems reasonable.Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-1312516128746625982010-03-19T08:31:17.769-07:002010-03-19T08:31:17.769-07:00"Religious tolerance".
Toward Muslims. ..."Religious tolerance".<br /><br />Toward Muslims. Fair enough. I am all for religious tolerance. When Hurricane Katrina came through I headed over to the Islamic center (housing several evacuee families) with a couple Chinese congregants, greeted them in Arabic, asked what they needed, the next day we provided most of what was on their list.<br /><br />But not toward fellow Anglicans. Who offered 3x what the Muslim group offered. A congregation that was thriving (how are the other 2 parishes in B'hamton doing?*) and ministering among the poor and hungry. Who had been maintaining and caring for that property for a long time.<br /><br />Clearly the issue here is not "religious tolerance". <br /><br />Assume for the sake of argument the legality of such moves. The ginormous elephant of a question in our living room is "But *why* is this so dang important to TEC leadership?" They can spare talk of "fiduciary responsibility" and the Dennis Canon. Because that does not really answer the question of *why* (motivation). Adherence to the letter of the law does not explain this all consuming crusade that overrides all other considerations. <br /><br />Including religious tolerance. Toward other Christians.<br /><br />*If selling a property because there are 2 other parishes makes sense, why not sell another and leave just one? Because B'hamton needs more than one? Well okay. Why not 3? Not seeing the logic there.Rick67https://www.blogger.com/profile/16764011597156012973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-13017135675294961382010-03-18T13:42:41.976-07:002010-03-18T13:42:41.976-07:00It seems to me as I read the comments that there a...It seems to me as I read the comments that there are people who know things that I don't know, e.g., that there were other and more appropriate current offers for the property that the diocese rejected; that haveing acting immorally in refusing to sell to the departing congregation and then suing it, any decision to sale is completely tainted; that every Muslim organization is dedicated to destroying the Church. If there are better current offers, I would agree that the diocesan decision reflects poor stewardship, but I doubt there any such offers. I reject the notion that because the diocese acted immorally (an assertion about which I can make no judgement given my limited knowledge), any decision it amkes about the property is to be condemned. I accept that there are Muslims who want to convert or wipe out all infidels, but I know Muslims who don't and not knowing the character of the group that seeks to but the property, any negative judgment that I would make about them would be simply prejudice. One might make the same argument from the other side becasue there are Christians who want to convert or wipe out all Muslims. My comments may be sadly naive, but the comments of some others are, IMV, hateful.<br /><br />Having exhausted myself and my patience in responding to this thread, I will now return to lurk-mode.Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-22978652867448787332010-03-18T12:56:09.089-07:002010-03-18T12:56:09.089-07:00Fr. Weir -
I am afraid your comments are sadly nai...Fr. Weir -<br />I am afraid your comments are sadly naive. Apparently you are ignorant of the background of this shameful episode.<br /><br />I second Deacon Andy. <br /><br />Really!Allen Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00853861649876959271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-16771958624286447862010-03-18T10:59:17.535-07:002010-03-18T10:59:17.535-07:00Fr. Daniel,
I mean no offense to the gentle reade...Fr. Daniel, <br />I mean no offense to the gentle readers of this blog. I have to state though, in light of the unceremonious dealings with the Kennedy family, the move on behalf of the diocese seems to smack of malice and aforethought. I am personally saddened by any deconsecration/sale of house of Christian worship (irrespective of denomination), I experience a sense of anger when that facility has been given over to a heretical sect that is bent on silencing the "faith once delivered", and the death of those faithful to the saving Gospel of our Lord.<br /><br />There are any number of worthy enterprises that could have slid into this once hallowed structure. The idea that it has now become a celebration of infidelity is especially grevious.<br /><br />If Dio CNY wanted to demonstrate to the community that they actually held stock in the faith they claim, they would have moved heaven and earth to plant a mission in that space.<br /><br />My true apologies if my comments offended you or any other reader. We've been made stewards of the Gospel and the words of salvation. Allowing this sanctuary to become another islamic beachead approaches an act of dhiminitude<br /><br />Deacon AndyAndyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03516444685469895837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-51866632123043347732010-03-18T10:36:31.257-07:002010-03-18T10:36:31.257-07:00Folks, be sure to follow the comments over at Baby...Folks, be sure to follow the comments over at Baby Blue's and at the MCJ, where there is even more of the story. Father Matt writes at the former blog:<br /><br />"Hi Fr. Weir, the fact is that Good Shepherd had doubled in size from 2002 to 2009 when we lost the building despite the poor demographics in town.<br /><br />"And, during negotiations, we offered three times the amount for the property than did the mosque which eventually bought it.<br /><br />"Instead the diocese sued us, kicked us out of the building and my family out of our home, and sold the church building cut rate to those who teach that Jesus is not God, did not truly die, did not rise, and is not Lord.<br /><br />"Any way you do the math, the diocese comes out looking very very small."<br /><br />There is no defense of the current sale, Fr. Weir, if as you say it was to dispose of "surplus property", because the Diocese turned down an offer that would have been for a price three times as high. It's the pious posturing about "interfaith respect", while under the table doing all that is possible to make it hard for the departing parish and its leaders, which makes the commenters here and on the other blogs so incensed.<br /><br />Hagrid, I'm afraid, was capable of getting very angry in the face of injustice, and I think he'd be angry here, too.A. S. Haleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05108498446058643166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-18185897771910002522010-03-18T10:36:31.258-07:002010-03-18T10:36:31.258-07:00I apologize for forgetting where I was and posting...I apologize for forgetting where I was and posting an almost totally incomprhensible comment. I am sad that our gracious host approved Andy's comment.Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-18881447729872635742010-03-18T09:26:57.221-07:002010-03-18T09:26:57.221-07:00The diocese had an..."urgent and pressing nee...The diocese had an..."urgent and pressing need" for MONEY!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-7953344597351907382010-03-18T09:25:12.093-07:002010-03-18T09:25:12.093-07:00I can only say that I am sad that bb apparently ap...I can only say that I am sad that bb apparently approved of Andy's comment. Where is Hagrid when we need him?Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-39965600761550128582010-03-18T09:23:01.236-07:002010-03-18T09:23:01.236-07:00I was not privy to the all the details of the nego...I was not privy to the all the details of the negotiantions bertween the diocese and the departing congregation and now find that my first comments on this thread might have been reasonably seen as defending the diocese's original decisions. I still know so little, that I can venture no opinion about whether those decisions were morally justified. The opinion which I stand by is about the current decision to sell the property. I concede that sale to a Chrsitian congregation would be preferable, but what is wrong about selling it to a Muslim congregation? In a region with declining population and two Episcopal parishes in Binghamton, holding on to the buildings would, IMV, be poor stewardship.<br /><br />I accept Dr. Alice's assertion that her comments were not reflective of anti-Muslim prejudice. I hope, in light of my assertion that I am not in a position to venture an opinion about anything other than the current plan to sell, that she will decide that I have not been appallingly willful of blind.Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-7024934695770566432010-03-18T08:08:14.844-07:002010-03-18T08:08:14.844-07:00May the LORD deal swiftly with those in DIO CNY wo...May the LORD deal swiftly with those in DIO CNY would would take a house of prayer and allow it to become a satanic stronhold! They couldn't have done worse if they sold it to a brothel keeper. Yes, I said it and stand by it.Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03516444685469895837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-35396538942090285152010-03-18T08:05:02.770-07:002010-03-18T08:05:02.770-07:00Fr Weir, my comments were directed against the app...Fr Weir, my comments were directed against the appalling willfulness and blindness exhibited by TEC and yourself, not against Muslims. However if it makes you feel better to view them in that light, be my guest.Dr. Alicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04776830530694403715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-82173697858389776702010-03-18T07:20:46.722-07:002010-03-18T07:20:46.722-07:00This angers me more than the lesbian "bishop&...This angers me more than the lesbian "bishop".Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02059920222709764278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-19677270107528465862010-03-17T21:47:29.356-07:002010-03-17T21:47:29.356-07:00Religious tolerance? Please. While other churche...Religious tolerance? Please. While other churches may sell their buildings to non-Christians from time to time, this is the first case I can recall of an alleged Christian diocese suing a group of Christians out of their meeting house and then turning around and selling the building to non-Christians. <br /><br />What, Gladstone "Skip" Adams couldn't have sold it back to the original parishioners? Or, God forbid, played the Christian and <i>given</i> it back to the people of Good Shepherd? <br /><br />While this might be the most disgraceful thing any outlet of the Episcopal Organization has done in a very long time, it does have one positive aspect. It proves that TEO's "protecting the heritage of Episcopalians who have gone before" line is absolute garbage and that TEO's word is worthless.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-44856371769510528422010-03-17T19:33:15.080-07:002010-03-17T19:33:15.080-07:00I am sorry to hear that selling a church building ...I am sorry to hear that selling a church building to a Muslim organization will damage the credibility of the Diocese of CNY. And what aboout the veiled comparison of a Muslim organization to a strip club? Whatever Dr. Alice's doctorate is in,it doesn't seem to be in religious tolerance. If that seems harsh, think how my Muslim friends would like these kinds of comments?Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.com