tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post1294116667390436970..comments2024-02-19T07:24:42.397-08:00Comments on Anglican Curmudgeon: The New Colonialism: Ganging up on NigeriaA. S. Haleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05108498446058643166noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-76649352555318308412009-03-17T13:17:00.000-07:002009-03-17T13:17:00.000-07:00You are right, Father Weir, I do not support any s...You are right, Father Weir, I do not support any such move. Not only is there no central Anglican body with the authority to expel any other member, but I think that the assumption behind any such call is that it is perfectly all right to make up bills of attainder and similar <I>ex post facto</I> measures, which I abhor.<BR/><BR/>Even the Windsor Report called on ECUSA and ACoC to act voluntarily, and until there is a Covenant by which all agree on the procedures that will be followed in the future, that is the most that can be done in the current situation.A. S. Haleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05108498446058643166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-23685939932153561362009-03-17T10:05:00.000-07:002009-03-17T10:05:00.000-07:00Mr. Haley,May I assume from your latest comment th...Mr. Haley,<BR/>May I assume from your latest comment that you do not agree with those who have called for the expulsion of ECUSA from the Anglican Communion?Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-75353137809036544342009-03-17T09:17:00.000-07:002009-03-17T09:17:00.000-07:00Father Weir, if it were just a matter of "criticis...Father Weir, if it were just a matter of "criticism", I could agree with you. What my original post was responding to was <A HREF="http://pluralistspeaks.blogspot.com/2009/03/expel-nigerian-church-time-to-move-on.html" REL="nofollow">calls such as these</A> to expel the Church of Nigeria from the Anglican Communion, which were echoed on countless liberal blogs.<BR/><BR/>Criticism is one thing; ganging up on a co-member of the Communion for not being in the <I>avant-garde</I> is something of a different order.A. S. Haleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05108498446058643166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-9016842762520043672009-03-17T08:15:00.000-07:002009-03-17T08:15:00.000-07:00Mr. Haley,I don't see criticism as the equivalent ...Mr. Haley,<BR/>I don't see criticism as the equivalent of imposing one's views on our sisters and brothers in Nigeria, any more than you would see criticism of ECUSA as imposing someone else's views on ECUSA. If we can't speak honestly to one another, then we should give up trying to be any kind of Communion. Shielding Arbp Akinola from criticism does not help and might even be viewed as a tad paternalistic. He is, by all accounts, capable of defending himself, although that probablky can't be said about LGBT Nigerians.Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-72702855283414901832009-03-17T07:59:00.000-07:002009-03-17T07:59:00.000-07:00Father Weir, as I state in my post:1. The criticis...Father Weir, as I state in my post:<BR/><BR/>1. The criticisms come only from the same fellow Christians who support what the Church of Nigeria does not: reading the Bible as being consistent with ordaining practicing homosexuals to be bishops.<BR/><BR/>2. Such a reading of the Bible also supports regarding homosexual marriage as an institution instituted by God, contrary to the overwhelming majority of Nigerian Christians.<BR/><BR/>3. This "criticism" is disproportionately directed at Nigeria, when all other African countries but one do not allow gay marriage.<BR/><BR/>4. It is not even a criticism of the law itself, but only of the Church's <I>support</I> of the law. In other words, Christians who fully support the ordination of active LGBT persons to the episcopate are saying that the Church in Nigeria should change its entire agenda from one of opposing any kind of same-sex marriage to coming out in support of it.<BR/><BR/>5. Imposing one's own "enlightened" views on a third-world country in disregard of the tenets of that country's own native culture is a form of colonialism, and doing so after that country has achieved independence is a form of neo-colonialism.<BR/><BR/>So, yes---if criticism of ECUSA means that those with a more advanced understanding of the Bible are urging the primitives in that Church to abandon their ill-formed and uncouth reading of what it says, then I would have to conclude with you that criticism of ECUSA (at least from outside it) is colonialism as well. <BR/><BR/>Did I go wrong in my reasoning anywhere? Somehow I don't think that is the conclusion you had in mind, but it is the one that follows from the given assumptions.A. S. Haleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05108498446058643166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-73183037212870703072009-03-17T07:24:00.000-07:002009-03-17T07:24:00.000-07:00I wonder how criticism of the actions of a brother...I wonder how criticism of the actions of a brother or sister in Christ can be called the new colonialism. Does that mean that the criticism of ECUSA is colonialism? If so, then let's stop any criticism.Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-22552299280063361772009-03-15T07:36:00.000-07:002009-03-15T07:36:00.000-07:00Those are great questions, UP. The first expresses...Those are great questions, UP. The first expresses my point that all this left-wing umbrage against Nigeria and Archbishop Akinola has not so much to do with this particular bill (which has, after all, been under consideration since 2006) as it has to do with their making ++Akinola a stalking horse for their "gay-rights" campaign.<BR/><BR/>Were I to become as incensed about unjust laws as they say they are, I would research and then do a post about each of the laws in all eighteen of the countries, and compare their features with some of the West's outlandish parallels, such as in Arkansas, where <A HREF="http://www.loonylaws.com/Arkansas.htm" REL="nofollow">you can be sent to jail for thirty days</A> for "flirting on the street" in Little Rock, or all of the other loony US laws <A HREF="http://www.loonylaws.com/" REL="nofollow">collected here.</A> But I don't have the time; let someone on the left do it. (And please don't get on me for equating a 30-day sentence with one for life; as I say, the Arkansas law was the product of just a quick search; I'm sure far worse ones exist.)<BR/><BR/>Oh, yes---we are so enlightened here, we are, and <I>so</I> superior to those primitive Africans (hah!).A. S. Haleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05108498446058643166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-38090713436752076012009-03-15T05:53:00.000-07:002009-03-15T05:53:00.000-07:00Thanks for the research. It does appear that the p...Thanks for the research. It does appear that the proposed law has the government involved in "solemnization" in Churches and mosques in Nigeria, but forgot to list "temples," stone circles, etc. <BR/><BR/>Two questions for you and Jeff.<BR/><BR/>Given our lack of background in Nigerian law and issues, are we being culturally insensitive in applying our "enlightened" western values to their situation? <BR/><BR/>And when does an issue leave the realm of cultural relativism and enter the court of universal truth?Undergroundpewsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10182191422663119484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-74223365094407974372009-03-14T22:33:00.000-07:002009-03-14T22:33:00.000-07:00UP, an update: I note that The Lead has published ...UP, an update: I note that The Lead has <A HREF="http://www.episcopalcafe.com/lead/SameSexBill.pdf" REL="nofollow">published a .pdf</A> of what it says is the text of the bill (just two pages). However, since there is no section 4 (c), it would appear that all the blogs who have picked up on this version of the bill are not commenting on the same version as the Anglican Church of Nigeria was.A. S. Haleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05108498446058643166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-50636899257426440082009-03-14T20:20:00.000-07:002009-03-14T20:20:00.000-07:00Jeff Tone, thank you very much for your counterpoi...Jeff Tone, thank you very much for your counterpoint. It is always a pleasure to have you comment in reaction to some of my more outlandishly conservative posts.<BR/><BR/>I do not believe that anyone short of a real Nigerian barrister is qualified to tell us what the effect of the later statute on the earlier would be. My comment was ironic only, intending to point up the fact that Westerners' ignorance of Nigerian ways and laws does not stop Westerners from opining about them.<BR/>(Maybe a Nigerian barrister will read this, and enlighten us.) This same observation applies to your next point, as well. Given the volatile mix in the Nigerian population between Muslims and Christians, and that it will take both of those groups acting together to enact the law, we who are used to our freedoms in the West simply cannot say what their respective motives are. <BR/><BR/>Sodomy remains a crime in practically all countries in Africa, parts of Asia, in Oceania, and in the Caribbean islands. The <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_law" REL="nofollow">Wikipedia article on the subject</A> asserts that it still receives the death penalty in eight countries, and life sentences in ten others. I think these facts are telling about the cultural divide that exists between the West and the East, and am pointing out only that singling out just one of these eighteen countries, and making such a campaign now about a law that has been under consideration in it for over two years, strikes me as driven by ulterior motives, that's all. A "sense of justice, conscience and honesty" would compel one to mount a campaign against all these countries, and not just one. Sufficient unto our own country are the injustices thereof.A. S. Haleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05108498446058643166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-36777338368233367412009-03-14T19:50:00.000-07:002009-03-14T19:50:00.000-07:00UP, according to the Amnesty International press r...UP, according to the Amnesty International press release, the bill proposes to punish people engaging in same-sex marriages with prison sentences of up to three years, while people who aided or abetted (i.e., performed) them could be sentenced for up to five years. The statement by the Anglican Church of Nigeria proposes to switch those maximum penalties around, so that the aiders and abetters would receive three years, but the principals themselves up to five years (see page five, discussing sections 4 (a) and (b) of the proposed law. I am not certain from the Amnesty statement what section 4 (c) punishes, but it would seem to be people or groups who get involved with the public lobbying or advocacy for same-sex marriage. (There is no First Amendment equivalent in Nigeria.) I have not been able to find the text of the proposed law on the Web. Wikipedia has an article on the bill <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same_Sex_Marriage_(Prohibition)_Act_2006" REL="nofollow">here,</A> but the link to the supposed full text is broken.A. S. Haleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05108498446058643166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-89222489595825822512009-03-14T08:27:00.000-07:002009-03-14T08:27:00.000-07:001. The law has not necessarily been “improved”; fo...1. The law has not necessarily been “improved”; for all we know, gay couples could be prosecuted for both sexual relations and marriage, with their sentences running consecutively.<BR/><BR/>2. The fact that Nigeria actually criminalized gay marriage ceremonies, in addition to gay sexual practice, is worthy of condemnation. It’s one thing if a state does not recognize gay marriage ceremonies (something, in my view, that should be recognized); it’s something entirely different if a state actually prosecutes those who participate in such a ceremony.<BR/><BR/>3. Public opposition to gay marriage in Poland, Lithuania and Greece is not the same as hauling Poles, Lithuanians and Greeks behind bars for participation in a ceremony.<BR/><BR/>4. The fact that laws are not obeyed in Nigeria has nothing to do with whether a law is justifiable in the first place.<BR/><BR/>5. If there are clergy of any faith who oppose this law and who also offer courses examining their tradition’s complicity with imperialist exploitation of indigenous populations, then I commend them for their sense of justice, their conscience and their honesty.<BR/><BR/>6. If Muslims in Nigeria are handing out capital punishment in their states to gays and Hamas has reinstituted crucifixion, both should be vehemently condemned. Not to do so is indeed inconsistent. Granted, those wrongs are worse than outlawing a ceremony. Regardless, they should be protested along with this new, unjustifiable law in Nigeria.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07149064142161519774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-759178030677978044.post-69690499192409634112009-03-13T12:50:00.000-07:002009-03-13T12:50:00.000-07:00The Rev. Akinola's suggested ammendments garnered ...The Rev. Akinola's suggested ammendments garnered some of the attacks from what I have seen thus far. <BR/><BR/>What was the original wording of the penalties for these crimes to be?Undergroundpewsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10182191422663119484noreply@blogger.com